The Teachthought Podcast

Drew Perkins welcomes back Ted Dintersmith to discuss the urgent need to move away from an education system obsessed with standardized testing and toward one that empowers students to do real, meaningful work. In his new book, Aftermath, and documentary, Multiple Choice, Dintersmith argues that our current system is "perfectly designed" to produce results that are increasingly irrelevant in an age of AI and automation. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Ted Dintersmith.com Book: Aftermath: The Life-Changing Math That Schools Won't Teach You Film: multiplechoicefilm.com The ThoughtStretchers (then TeachThought) Podcast Ep. 115 Let's Talk About What School Could Be (2018)   Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. A significant portion of this conversation focuses on Ted's critique of the traditional math "treadmill." Drawing fr

Drew Perkins talks with David Geary, a cognitive developmental and evolutionary psychologist and Curator's Professor in the Department of Psychological Sciences at the University of Missouri. They dive into the foundations of evolutionary educational psychology, exploring how our evolutionary history shapes the way we learn today and why certain types of knowledge are fundamentally more difficult to acquire than others. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review wherever you're listening. The core of the conversation centers on Geary's groundbreaking distinction between biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge. Primary knowledge includes skills like spoken language, social navigation, and basic folk physics, which humans have evolved to acquire effortlessly and instinctively. In contrast, secondary knowledge—such as reading, writing, an

Drew Perkins welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida's tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public schools improve when they face the threat of losing students to nearby private options. Graff's research found that public school students in high-competition areas in Florida were 120 to 140 days ahead in reading compared to those in low-competition areas. Most strikingly, he estimates that the competition route was 11 t

Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid  to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking. A major

Drew Perkins talks with Brendan Lee, a primary school teacher, host of the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast, and advocate for evidence-informed pedagogy. Brendan shares his transition from an initial belief in unguided project-based learning to a more structured approach rooted in the Science of Reading and the instructional hierarchy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Brendan explains the instructional hierarchy—a framework that identifies where a student sits on the continuum from novice to expert. He emphasizes that when students are in the "acquisition stage" (or frustration stage), they require high levels of scaffolding and explicit instruction. Without this foundation, students often become disengaged because they lack the prerequisite skills to tackle complex tasks. A

Drew Perkins speaks with John Sweller, Emeritus Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of New South Wales, and Oliver Caviglioli, information designer and former special school principal, about the foundations and future of Cognitive Load Theory (CLT). As one of the most influential frameworks in modern education, CLT provides a scientific roadmap for understanding how human cognitive architecture dictates the way we should—and shouldn't—teach. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review wherever you're listening. The conversation begins with Sweller's essential distinction between biologically primary knowledge (skills like speech that we evolve to acquire naturally) and biologically secondary knowledge (academic subjects like reading and math that require explicit instruction). Sweller argues that because schools primarily deal wit

Drew Perkins talks with Brian Lamb, founder of Swivl, about the "Paradox of Edtech" and how modern digital interfaces are changing the way we learn. They discuss the shift from being "data-driven" to "data-informed," the importance of "decentering" for perspective-taking, and how AI can serve as a reflective thought partner for teachers rather than a replacement for human-led instruction. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode  Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Episode Overview: Brian Lamb and Drew Perkins explore why traditional edtech often creates a "gamified" version of reality that limits student growth. Brian explains how Swivl is pivoting toward tools that prioritize human reflection over screen time. They dive into the necessity of "decentering"—the cognitive ability to step outside one's own perspective—and how AI can be

Drew Perkins welcomes Emily Waugh and Gabriela Delgado de Fina, both Assistant Heads of School for the A+ World Academy. They discuss the academy's unique educational model: a 10-month voyage for 72 students aboard the Sorlandet, a fully rigged ship built in 1927. The conversation explores the challenges and rewards of a "school at sea," where academics, communal living, and maritime training converge. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Emily and Gabriela detail the academy's core philosophy and five goals for global leadership, which integrates academics with global studies, communal living, maritime training, and reflective learning. They share how students are required to participate in maritime watches, cleaning, and galley duties, fostering a deep sense of responsibility and grit. A mand

Drew Perkins talks with investigative reporter Chris Papst about his book, Failure Factory: How Baltimore City Public Schools Deprive Taxpayers and Students of a Future . Papst, a reporter for Project Baltimore, shares his deep-dive into why one of the most funded school systems in America remains one of the lowest performing . From systemic grade manipulation to the misuse of school funds, this conversation explores the "end stages" of a failing public education system and serves as a critical warning for the rest of the country . Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Video version available at: https://youtu.be/LO5ZHmYJzEA Papst details the findings of his multi-year investigation, which uncovered "the 50% rule"—a policy preventing students from receiving grades below 50%, regardless of attendance or performance—and instances where principals directly ordered teachers to change failing grades to passing. He argues that the focus has shifted from educating children to acquiring funding and grow

Drew Perkins welcomes Carole Geneix, Director of Teaching and Learning at Washington International School, to the podcast to discuss the evolving landscape of Artificial Intelligence in education. As schools grapple with the "AI revolution," Geneix argues that instead of fearing these tools, educators must integrate them into content-rich, inquiry-based frameworks to deepen student thinking. Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email us at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Carole highlights that the "AI fear" often stems from a misunderstanding of what these tools do. Drawing from her extensive background in the International Baccalaureate (IB) and Project Zero thinking routines, she explains that AI shouldn't be viewed as a way to bypass thinking, but as a "material" and "process" for students to interact with. By shifting the focus from the f

Drew Perkins welcomes education writer and author Natalie Wexler to the podcast to discuss her latest work and the evolving conversation around explicit instruction and the "Science of Reading." While the movement has successfully brought phonics to the forefront, Wexler argues that too narrow of a focus ignores the lessons of the Science of Learning.   Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Wexler notes that the "Science of Reading" is often misunderstood as being synonymous with phonics. While foundational skills are non-negotiable, she explains that the "Mississippi Miracle" and other literacy success stories are incomplete without a focus on building background knowledge. The conversation dives into the biological and cognitive necessity of elaboration, the process of connecting new information to what a student already knows, as the primary engine for long-term retention and comprehension. A significant portion of the discussion centers on Cognitive Load Theory and why it is frequently missing

Drew Perkins welcomes neuroscientist and acclaimed author Jared Cooney Horvath to dissect his new book, The Digital Delusion, which provides a rigorous, evidence-based critique of edtech. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Horvath doesn't mince words, arguing that the majority of student-facing, internet-connected devices should be removed from schools. He reveals that over 60 years of consistent data supports his claim that the integration of digital tools is fundamentally detrimental to effective learning. This isn't a Luddite's complaint; it's a detailed exploration of the Neuroscience of Learning. The harm is explained through three primary biological mechanisms, which Horvath asserts are unfixable with software. First, screens train students to multitask, leading to a constant, detrimental battle for attention in a learning environment. Second, the use of devices inhibits the essential human-to-human interaction necessary for empathetic synchrony—the mirroring and mimicking critical for d

In this episode of the ThoughtStretchers podcast, host Drew Perkins talks with Dr. Barbara Oakley, distinguished professor of engineering and co-instructor of the celebrated Learning How to Learn course, to discuss her critical opinion piece: Censorship Hurts Our Brains: Why Neuroscience Confirms the Importance of Free Speech. They dive deep into the neural mechanisms behind free expression, the challenges facing K-12 education, and the dangers of sacrificing liberty for perceived order. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode + Video Podcast Show Notes & Main Discussion Points: Neuroscience and Free Speech: Dr. Oakley explains that exposure to differing viewpoints is essential for cognitive flexibility and how emotional upset literally impedes rational thought when we engage with challenging ideas. The 'Cult of Safety': We examine how the modern pursuit of "safe spaces" can ironically lead to a heightened acceptance of hostility toward people with different political views. K-12 Education &

Drew Perkins welcomes Gary Schiffman and Jon Bassett of 4QM Teaching to the podcast to discuss their new US History curriculum and the principles behind their innovative Four Question Method. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode This conversation explores the gap between traditional inquiry-based learning and the need for explicit instruction in historical content and disciplinary thinking. Gary and Jon explain how their curriculum is designed to support "ordinary teachers" and build students' capacity for civil disagreement by grounding critical thinking in a robust body of knowledge. Key Takeaways & Discussion Points The Power of the 4QM Method: We detail why 4QM Teaching shifted from consulting to developing a full curriculum, recognizing the need for a practical vehicle to implement their teaching framework in the classroom. The Four Question Framework: Learn the four core questions that anchor every lesson and build specific historical thinking skills: Q1: What happened? (The skill of N

Drew Perkins talks with Lauren Brown, Jonathan Dallimore, and Aaron Aastor about the role of facts and critical thinking in teaching history. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins and guest co-host, Melinda Karshner, talk with Timothy Shanahan about his new book, Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives, How Students' Reading Achievement Has Been Held Back and What We Can Do About It. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Shane Leaning about his new book, Change Starts Here: What If Everything Your School Needed Was Right in Front of You? Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Heidi Boghosian about her book, Cyber Citizens: Saving Democracy with Digital Literacy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode  

Drew Perkins talks with George Lilley, a veteran teacher from Australia, about his critiques of the work of John Hattie, and the Science of Learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with return guest, Ronn Nozoe, CEO of the National Association of Secondary School Principals (NASSP). Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode