Recode Decode, Hosted By Kara Swisher

Today, I’m talking with Gerrit Kazmaier, the brand-new president of product and technology at Workday. Gerrit’s new on the job, maybe a little bit braver than most, and to his credit he came on the show and took the heat. We spent a lot of time talking about what enterprise software really is, what it does and why it has a reputation of being so deeply frustrating for so many people.  Links:  Workday names Gerrit Kazmaier president of product and technology | Workday AI Index Report | Stanford HAI IBM AI Study | IBM How generative AI will impact the future of work | Workday Workday launches platform for companies to manage all of their AI agents | TechCrunch Everyone hates Workday | Business Insider Judge: Workday must face novel AI bias lawsuit | Reuters Workday lays off 1,750, 8.5% of employees, in AI push | Associated Press Why Workday's CEO made a layoff decision to invest in AI | FastCompany Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/667538 Credits: Decoder is a p

We’re doing something a little different today — I asked my friend John Gruber of Daring Fireball to come on the show and talk about the future of Apple, and, importantly, the App Store. I wanted to talk about the most recent ruling in the Epic v. Apple legal saga. But I also wanted to talk about the big picture at Apple, and why the company seems to have found itself being hammered on all sides: by the developers that feel it’s become too greedy, by federal court judges that no longer trust it, and by regulators now threatening some of its major cash cows.  Links:  Judge rules, in excoriating decision, that Apple violated 2021 order | Daring Fireball Steve Jobs’ response on Section 3.3.1 | Tao Effect Blog Epic submitted Fortnite to Apple | Verge Eddy Cue is fighting to save Apple’s $20 billion paycheck from Google | Verge Epic is offering developers an alternative to Apple’s in-app purchases | Verge Epic says Fortnite is coming back to iOS in the US | Verge Apple files appeal t

Today, I’m talking with Paul Bascobert, who is the president of Reuters, as part of a special Thursday series we’re running this month to explore how leaders at some world’s biggest companies make decisions in such a rapidly changing environment. Reuters is a great company for us to kick off with, because it’s been around since 1851, when the hot technology enabling mass media was the telegraph.  Here, today, in 2025, the tech driving media has clearly changed more than a little bit. Distribution in a world full of iPhones and generative AI is a really different proposition than distributing media 50 years before the invention of the radio. So there’s a lot here, and you’ll hear Paul and I get deep into basically every Decoder theme there is. Links:  The Trust Principles | Reuters Brendan Carr’s FCC is an anti-consumer, rights-trampling harassment machine | Verge AP wins reinstatement to White House events | AP  NYT publisher AG Sulzberger on Trump, OpenAI and the economy | Channels Dow J

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay. We’re off today, but we’ll be back Thursday, so stay tuned. In the meantime, we have an excellent episode from Business Insider Chief Correspondent Peter Kafka, who hosts the media podcast Channels. In this episode, Peter sat down with one of the biggest names in journalism: New York Times publisher AG Sulzberger. It’s a fascinating conversation that covers some of the most pressing issues facing journalism and the news business today. We think you’ll like it.  Links: NYT publisher AG Sulzberger on Trump, OpenAI and the economy | Channels New York Times Reports 350,000 Additional Digital Subscribers | NYT IGN and CNET owner Ziff Davis sues OpenAI | Verge The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement | Verge Dow Jones CEO Almar Latour on AI, press freedom, and the future of news | Decoder Platforms need the news — but they’re killing it | Decoder Why The Atlantic signed a deal with OpenAI | Decoder Platformer’s Casey Ne

A lot has happened in the first 100 days of Trump's second term. It’s nearly too much to keep up with, really, but we're going to try. Verge policy editor Adi Robertson joins Decoder this week to talk through six of the biggest stories and themes we're covering, from tariffs to TikTok to DOGE. Links:  Donald Trump’s first 100 days: all the news affecting the tech industry | Verge The DOGE days have just begun | Verge America is living in tariff limbo | Verge MAGA’s next wave of influencers saved TikTok | Verge Whatever happened to the Kids’ Online Safety Act? | Verge Brendan Carr’s FCC is an anti-consumer, rights-trampling harassment machine | Verge Environmental warning systems are suffering from Trump’s data purge | Verge Why Trump can’t be trusted with Congress’ new anti-deepfake bill | Decoder How Trump’s tariffs actually work on the ground | Decoder The FCC is a weapon in Trump’s war on free speech | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and pa

A few days ago, I hosted a panel with FTC commissioners Rebecca Slaughter and Alvaro Bedoya at the IAPP Global Privacy Summit in Washington, DC. We recorded the discussion, and we’re bringing it to you today. Normal Decoder stuff, but these are anything but normal times. Becca and Alvaro were FTC commissioners until very recently, when President Donald Trump fired them — but he doesn't have that legal authority. They’re suing to get their jobs back, and they’re prepared to go all the way to SCOTUS if they have to. Links:  Trump fires Democratic FTC commissioners | The Verge Fired FTC commissioners sue Trump | The Verge The case for breaking up Google has never been stronger | The Verge The government doesn’t understand Meta | The Verge FTC v Meta live: updates from the battle for Instagram, WhatsApp | The Verge DOGE has arrived at the FTC | The Verge Inside Mark Zuckerberg’s failed negotiations with the FTC | Wall Street Journal FTC ch

Today we’re talking about the very real possibility that Google might be broken up by the United States government. And to do that, I’m talking to Jonathan Kanter, the former assistant attorney general for antitrust under the Biden administration. Kanter left the DOJ after Trump was elected, but he was the architect of the major antitrust cases the Trump administration continues to pursue against Google. That means he’s much more free to share his thoughts on what it took to build and win both of these cases and what should happen next. Links:  Google loses ad tech monopoly case | Verge Google is in more danger than ever of being broken up | Verge OpenAI tells judge it would buy Chrome from Google | Verge The high stakes of Google’s monopoly trial | Verge DOJ says Google must sell Chrome to crack open search monopoly | Verge Google makes history with rapid-fire antitrust losses | NYT Read the antitrust ruling against Google | NYT Google ad monopoly ruling's surprise winner: OpenAI | Axios

As CEO of Verizon's consumer division, Sowmyanarayan Sampath oversees the biggest part of the company, which does business with roughly a third of the entire country. He's a longtime Verge reader, so we  talked very directly about whether the huge 5G investment had actually paid off, and whether – whether the “race” we were supposedly in with China was actually worth it, and what kinds of new apps and services actually come to light. And while Verizon fought tooth and nail against regulations like net neutrality, the current Trump administration isn’t nearly as hands-off when it comes to things like  holding up deals because of DEI policies — something that’s happening to Verizon right now. So I had to ask Sampath if he was going to push back on that kind of government overreach as hard as Verizon has in the past. Links:  The US government makes a $42 million bet on OpenRAN | The Verge FCC scrutinizes Verizon’s $9.6 billion Frontier deal over DEI | USA Today Verizon offers a three-year price

One of the ways I’ve been trying to sort out the chaos of tariffs and trade wars is by talking to the people behind the software that makes the global trade system go. So today I wanted to bring back one of my favorite Decoder guests: Flexport CEO Ryan Petersen, whose software manages the logistics of moving things around the world, from factory to doorstep.  We didn’t get too much into the numbers — those tariff percentages keep changing — so instead Ryan and I really focused on how this system works, how it’s supposed to work, and how it’s working now, if it’s working at all.  Links:  Flexport Tariff Live Blog | Flexport US tariffs: how Trump’s tax is hitting Big Tech and beyond | Verge How much will Trump’s tariffs cost U.S. importers? | NYT How much are tariffs on Chinese goods? It’s tricky | NYT How Trump’s tariff chaos is already changing global trade | Decoder Can software simplify the supply chain? Ryan Petersen thinks so | Decoder Why Flexport CEO Ryan Petersen took his company back

Today, I’m talking with Vlad Tenev, the co-founder and CEO of Robinhood, which started as a way to open up stock trading. But the company’s ambitions have grown over time – and they’re getting bigger. Just a day before Vlad and I talked, Robinhood announced it would soon be offering bank accounts and wealth management services, which would really allow Robinhood to be involved with your money at every possible level.  So I was very interested to sit down with Vlad and really hash out where Robinhood is going, and why he’s so adamant that certain big ideas, like prediction markets based around everything from sports games to presidential elections, are going to play a pivotal role in the future of finance. Links:  Robinhood CEO Vlad Tenev on markets for everything | Hard Fork Robinhood is launching bank accounts | Verge Kalshi sues Nevada and New Jersey regulators | Esports Insider Kalshi CEO: ‘State law doesn’t really apply’ to us | TechCrunch Robinhood debuts a sports gambling hub | Verge The

Rohit Chopra was the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau head until the end of January, when President Donald Trump fired him and Elon Musk’s DOGE began trying to dismantle the agency. The CFPB has been pretty popular since it was founded in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis to protect consumers, so shutting it down has kicked off a bunch of controversies — not least of which was whether Trump and Musk even had the power to do it. This all led me to ask several times who made the decision to fire him, who is currently responsible for the various policies of our government, and whether any of those things add up to a clear plan. Some of the most powerful executives in the world answer questions like this on Decoder all the time. But Rohit just didn’t know — and that should probably be as worrying as anything. Links:  Trump fires CFPB director Rohit Chopra | Associated Press Trump orders CFPB to stop work, closes building | Associated Press CFPB workers reinstated after court order but still can’t

Today, I’m talking with Daniel Dines, the co-founder and once again the CEO of UiPath, a software company that specializes in something called robotic process automation. We’ve been featuring a lot of what I like to call full-circle Decoder guests on the show lately, and Daniel is a perfect example. He was first on the show in 2022, and UiPath has had a lot of changes since then, including a short stint with a different CEO. Daniel is now back at the helm, and the timing is important: the company needs to shift, fast, to a world of agentic AI, which is radically changing the RPA business. We got into all that and more in this episode. It’s a fun one.  Links:  UiPath’s Daniel Dines thinks automation can fight the great resignation | Decoder Daniel Dines: Why Agents Do Not Mean RPA is Fucked | Harry Stebbings UiPath to re-appoint Daniel Dines as CEO | UiPath UiPath shares tank 30% after company announces CEO shakeup | CNBC UiPath to lay off 10% of workforce in companywide restructuring | CNBC UiPa

Today, we’re diving head first into the AI art debate, which to be honest, is an absolute mess. If you’ve been on the internet this past week, you’ve seen the Studio Ghibli memes. These images are everywhere — and they’ve widened an already pretty stark rift between AI boosters and critics. Brian Merchant, author of the newsletter and book Blood in the Machine, wrote one of the best analyses of the Ghibli trend last week. So I invited him onto the show not only to discuss this particular situation, but also to help me dissect the ongoing AI art debate more broadly.  Links:  OpenAI's Studio Ghibli meme factory is an insult to art itself | Brian Merchant Seattle engineer’s Ghibli-style image goes viral | Seattle Times OpenAI just raised another $40 billion round from SoftBank | Verge ChatGPT “added one million users in the last hour.” | Verge ChatGPT’s Ghibli filter is political now, but it always was | Verge OpenAI, Google ask the government to let them train on content they don’t own | Verge S

Unity is one of those hidden in plain sight companies we love here on Decoder, and CEO Matt Bromberg is in many ways the perfect Decoder guest. He's been on the job less than a year and took over in a moment of crisis. He describes the company as being "at war with its customers" before he joined, and he's not wrong. The game industry right now is also contracting overall — studios are closing, and some big bets on things like the metaverse and live service games haven’t paid off. So we talked about all that, and where Matt sees growth ahead: Unity isn’t just a game engine provider, but the platform for everything from running those big live services and the monetization on top of them. Links:  Unity’s struggles continue with fresh wave of layoffs | The Verge Unity attempts to turn things around with latest game engine release | The Verge Unity has eliminated its controversial runtime fee | The Verge ‘We want to be a fundamentally different and better company’ | IGN John Riccitiello is out at Unity

Today we’re talking about bird flu, but in a pretty Decoder way. Science journalist Lauren Leffer, who recently wrote a piece for The Verge about bird flu and how it’s becoming a forever war, is joining me on the show. We’re going to talk about the systems, structure, and culture that might control bird flu — and those that might make it worse. Links:  We’ve entered a forever war with bird flu | Verge Kennedy’s alarming prescription for bird flu on poultry farms | NYT First bird flu death in US reported in Louisiana | NYT Bird flu found in sheep in UK, a world first | NYT Shell shocked: how small eateries are dealing with record egg prices | NYT Animal Farm: eggflation’s monopoly problem | The Lever At the ‘Wall Street of Eggs,’ Demand Is Surging | WSJ How to protect your pets from bird flu | Popular Science What to know about the bird flu outbreak in wild birds | AP Bird flu continues to spread as Trump experts are MIA | Ars Technica Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and pa

Today, I’m talking with Kakul Srivastava, CEO of music creation platform Splice, which is one of the biggest marketplaces around for loops and samples. You can just go sign up, pay the money, and download these loops to try to make pop hits all day long. Take, for instance, Sabrina Carpenter’s Espresso, which was composed almost entirely out of Splice loops.  Now, if you’re a Decoder listener, you know that some of my favorite conversations are with people building technology products for creatives, and that I am obsessed with how technology changes the music industry, because it feels like whatever happens to music happens to everything else five years later. So this one was really interesting, because Splice is all wrapped in all of that.  Links:  Sabrina Carpenter’s Espresso highlights the way new music is made | Bloomberg Major record labels sue AI company behind ‘BBL Drizzy’ | Verge Splice CEO’s message for AI sceptics? “Trust the artists” | MusicTech Splice launches voice recording on Splice M

Today we're talking about the Tesla Takedown protest movement, which has emerged as a way for people to express how deeply unhappy they are with Elon Musk installing himself as a not-so-shadow president who is tearing the federal government apart, leaving confusion and destruction in his wake. Tesla's stock price is sinking, new car registrations and down, and hype around the company is fading rapidly. There's an opportunity there for the protestors, and I asked Ed Niedermeyer on the show to help me pull it all apart. Links:  Is Tesla cooked? | Verge Elon Musk Has Become Too Toxic for YouTube | New York Magazine ‘Tesla Takedown’ wants to hit Elon Musk where it hurts | Verge The Tesla protests are getting bigger — and rowdier | Verge ‘Tesla Takedown’ protesters planning ‘biggest day of action’ | Verge Tesla registrations — and public opinion — are in a free fall | Verge Multiple Teslas set on fire in Las Vegas and Kansas City | Verge Mark Rober’s Tesla video was more than a little weird | Ve

I'm talking to Evan Smith, who started Altana in 2019 because he predicted the first wave of globalized manufacturing and trade would end, and that companies would want new powerful tools to adapt their supply chains as the world grew more complex. Here in 2025, that looks like a pretty good bet — even if the way it's playing out is more stressful and chaotic than anyone really wants it to be. There are some big, unsettling ideas here, but talking about them directly and with clarity at least made me feel like I had a framework to understand the endless on-again, off-again news cycle on tariffs and trade. Links:  Globalization 2.0 Manifesto | Altana The ‘giant sucking sound’ of NAFTA | The Conversation ‘Offensive Realism’: The never-ending struggle for power | American Diplomacy (2002) Foreign Affairs Big Mac I | NYT (1996) The end of the Golden Arches Doctrine | Financial Times Trump could scale back tariffs, Lutnick says | CNBC China joined rule-based trading system — then broke the rules | Po

Today, I’m talking to Verge policy editor Adi Robertson about a bill called the Take It Down Act, which is one in a long line of bills that would make it illegal to distribute non-consensual intimate imagery, or NCII. This is a real and devastating problem on the internet, and AI is just making it worse.  But Adi just wrote a long piece arguing that giving the Trump administration new powers over speech in this way would be a mistake. So in this episode, Adi and I really get into the details of the Take it Down Act, how it might be weaponized, and why we ultimately can’t trust anything the Trump administration says about wanting to solve this problem.  Links:  The Take It Down Act isn’t a law, it’s a weapon | Verge A bill combatting the spread of AI deepfakes just passed the Senate | Verge Welcome to the era of gangster tech regulation | Verge FTC workers are getting terminated | Verge Bluesky deletes AI protest video of Trump sucking Musk's toes | 404 Media Trump supports Take It Down Act so he

Almar Latour is the publisher of the Wall Street Journal and also CEO of its parent company, Dow Jones — itself a part of Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. Almar's been with the paper since the 90s, and now he's got insight into all the modern messes. He's made a big deal with OpenAI, while also suing Perplexity — all while building his own AI data products for Dow Jones customers. He's also a strong defender of press freedom who fought to have Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich released from Russia after being imprisoned for more than a year — while News Corp. chairman Rupert Murdoch famously has deep ties to Trump and has overseen a vastly polarized and politicized era of news media. Links:  Here are the WSJ journalists whose jobs were eliminated | Talking Biz News OpenAI, WSJ parent strike content deal valued at over $250M | Wall Street Journal News Corp sues Perplexity for ripping off WSJ, New York Post | The Verge Dow Jones negotiates AI usage rights with 4,000 publishers | Nieman Lab Rup